00:00:07 John

Yeah. So I’m going to lead a short grounding. So taking time just to find our seats comfortable, as much as you can be, Rosemary, feel free to adjust readjust. You might decide what needs to happen to your hands, whether you’d like to have them palms up over your lap, hanging by your side. You might tune in to see what needs to happen to your eyes, whether you’d like to lower your gaze, keep them open or close your eyes. And as we usually do, bringing our attention to the breath, just noticing that we can be with our breaths, being present to it, allowing it. And maybe with the next breath, we can just see if it’s possible to extend a little bit our shoulders down from our ears, just melting a little bit the shoulders, Noticing how our breaths are this morning. How are we holding ourselves without any judgment and just noticing what would it take to be a little bit more present in the moment, maybe with the next breath, directing a little bit that attention inside, Just noticing the contact points between the seat and our body, feet on the floor, maybe even taking an opportunity to wiggle your toes just to reestablish that connection to the ground, to the earth, with gravity holding us in place. And as we do so, just noticing wherever we might be holding tension inside and anything we come across, positive, neutral, negative, not making it wrong, maybe even noticing the tendency of the mind to automatically judge what you come across. And just for the purpose of this short grounding, to just accept what’s there, maybe finally just noticing this morning, this afternoon, whatever time it may be, how active our minds are and just noticing the tendency of whatever might be happening inside in the body to send those signals up to our minds, making up stories. And just see for the purpose of today’s conversation, that we can all potentially put away all of those thoughts into a satchel, a bag to leave by our side with the option after this conversation to pick them up again and go about our day. So just bringing this to an end, feel free to redirect your awareness back into our zoom call.

00:03:41 Rosemary

It was beautiful. Thank you.

00:03:44 John

You’re welcome.

00:03:47 Rosemary

And welcome to the Gifts of Trauma podcast by Compassionate Inquiry. I’m Rosemary Davies James, and today I’m delighted to be speaking with a colleague from Compassionate Inquiry. Sorry, I’m going to try that again. I always do this at the beginning. So. Welcome to the Gifts of Trauma podcast. I’m gonna get the giggles out. Welcome to the Gifts of Trauma podcast by Compassionate Inquiry. I’m Rosemarie Davies Jaynes, and today I’m delighted to be Speaking to a colleague from the compassionate inquiry community, John Cummins. Welcome.

00:04:23 John

Thank you. Rosemarie.

00:04:25 Rosemary

It’s a delight to have you here. You have such an unusual professional trajectory. You started off in medical science, moved to investment banking and Most recently spent 20 years in corporate leadership before becoming a coach and therapist. I know you don’t like those terms, but just to make it easy for our listeners, I wonder if you’d like to take a moment to introduce yourself rather than me reading your bio.

00:04:54 John

Yes. And thank you for the opportunity to be here. So, as you’ve spoken to. I’m an executive coach, somatic therapist. I’m based in Switzerland. I’m originally from the south of Ireland. I left home really early because I had a passion for studying and at the time I decided that toxicology, biomedical science was the direction that I wanted to go in. I moved to the UK and I started a profession working in histopathology which is examining, examining tissue, examining the body under, under slides, supporting the oncologists, the pathologists in the work they’re doing, the clinical work. I was working for a large teaching hospital in the UK at the time, 20 something years old, ambitious, curious and yeah, I wanted more. So I decided to leave the body and went, I went where the action was. So I left the country, I moved to mainland Europe and I managed to get into international investment banking. So it was quite a, quite a jump, you know, and it was quite, it was scary at the time because I was in the country, I didn’t know the language and trying to find my way and yeah, kind of rolling forward a few years. I ended up moving to different investment banks and I ended up in a senior leader position with, with an investment bank and then running a financial market, infrastructure, titles, teams, basically the, the whole thing. Except that I kind of fell into what I call the, the dark ages. And I think everybody has, has one of these periods in their life when all of the outworldly successes are actually there and nameable. But inside there was a, a sense of not knowing myself. Completely disconnected, completely disconnected from myself. Feeling like I was in a cage and you know, yeah, that was, that was a difficult period and you know, rolling on a couple of years later I managed to change that as well and move into the helping space or helping world, supporting others in hopefully in a similar way that I had supported my, myself and that’s what I do today.

00:07:50 Rosemary

Wonderful. Gosh, that seems awfully brave to move to a country where you don’t speak the language and get into an industry that’s brand new to you. So, yeah, curiosity and courage, if I might summarize that way. Now, John, you are someone who’s trained in compassionate inquiry. And what we often do when we begin a CI session is set an intention. And I’m wondering, do you have an intention? You know, we have an hour together today. What, what would you like to cover in this hour? What would you like listeners to take away?

00:08:36 John

So I’d like listeners to ideally have an, an insight into the community that I specifically work with who may seem from the outside as a little bit distant and not the usual type of client that one might meet on a compassionate inquiry training, for example, and to maybe dispel a couple of myths around working with executives.

00:09:08 J’aime

Perfect.

00:09:09 Rosemary

And my intention really is just to create the space and hold the space for you to do that. So I’m going to go back to the beginning, if that’s all right with you. You spent your working life, the early working life, looking through a microscope, first a tissue. But you carried some of that with you because you shared that you looked at investments the same way, you started looking at companies the same way, you looked at people the same way. So I’m curious, how does it feel to remove that microscope lens and just sit with people and I wonder if there’s a story there you’d like to share. Like you don’t make minor pivots, you make grand changes. So, you know, from the C suite office to working as you do now, that’s a huge change. And I’m curious just how it felt when you made that shift.

00:10:12 John

Yeah, it’s like everything, it has pros and cons. So the work I do at the moment is extremely fulfilling. In fact, I get as much out of supporting my clients as potentially they do. Nevertheless, it’s not the easiest profession to be in. Of course, financially, economically, it’s completely different, different scale to corporate work, which does have an impact on how one lives one’s life. And that has to, that’s a conscious decision that somebody has to, to take on the, you know, on the other hand, I think it, at the end of the day, particularly, I don’t know if this is age related, but certainly when I got to a certain, let’s say, place in my career or even age, I started thinking about things a little bit differently and started looking at my own level of self awareness and what I needed to personally look at and work on. And I think that’s really important because as we know from compassionate inquiry, we can really only support somebody to the Same level of healing and self awareness that we’ve actually arrived at ourselves. So I think it all started for me with doing that internal own healing work, trauma repair, self discovery, and in that, realizing that there’s actually a whole other world out there that I had been missing. Because when we start reconnecting with ourselves, then we realize that can. That opens up a door not just to a different state of being, but it also facilitates conversations, connection with other people, allowing other people to be seen doing that inner work is so essential because it also means that I can lend that in a conversation. If I have. Working with somebody who may be really scared, chronic anxiety, maybe there’s ptsd, maybe there’s lack of confidence, self esteem, whatever it is, they don’t have to be perfect in that moment. I can lend some of the, say the, the energy or those qualities in the conversation to be able to support the person, do some of that inner work, if that makes sense.

00:13:04 Rosemary

It does. Makes perfect sense. And we talk. Actually, Galvor talks a lot about what happened to you. And I’m wondering if something happened to you that turned your focus inward, that began this journey. Because you’ve studied compassionate inquiry, you’ve studied, you’ve studied internal family system systems, you’ve studied polyvagal theory and somatic practices. So did something happen that shifted your focus to this inner landscape? And if so, I’m wondering if you’d be willing to share that with us.

00:13:39 John

You’re absolutely right. And what tips people over? Certainly what I see in my work is one of three things, right? Either the body is sending an invoice. So that can be back pain, can be tachycardia, it can be syncope, it can be auto. Something autoimmune or something somebody at home names it going home. There’s lack of presence, there’s chronic disengagement. This, this disconnection at home from the family and your partner or kids say, well, wait a second, this is not okay anymore. We, this is, this is not. We have. There’s a problem or something breaks down. Somebody is actually in a job for 10 years, 15 years, and they have identified themselves perhaps overly with a particular profession, career, whatever, and that comes crumbling down. And that can often be a really good reason to look for additional resources to find their way back. Um, yeah, in, in my particular case, I think, you know, it was probably a mixture of a few of those at the same time. Yeah. So, I mean, as I kind of alluded to at the, at the peak when everything on the outside was working really well, Things at home weren’t working so well and that I went through quite a difficult transition to be able to kind of rediscover myself. And that was a time kind of filled with a lot of uncertainty, a lot of fear, a lot of, yeah, lack of purpose. And the divorce that I went through was kind of pulling in a lot of cultural burdens, a lot of family burdens that I had picked up along the way, a lot of beliefs around what family success should look like, what a perfect relationship, perfect husband, father, working professional should look like. And then I realized, well, these were not necessarily my goals. These were, these are not necessarily wasn’t the path that I needed to, to be on at that time. So that kind of threw a lot of internal pain that pushed me into more self discovery and exploration. And then when you go down that path, you start realizing, oh, I’m actually, I have a lot of problems here. And then you start looking at those one by one and you know, it’s like peeling off the, the layers of the, the onion. And the more work you do, whether that’s first through coaching, then through different forms of therapy, you keep going deeper and deeper until, yeah, you, you find maybe a core of calmness and compassion for other people and curiosity. And then, yeah, for me, the next step was to see how much of that I can put out there in the world and support other people who maybe have been in a, on a similar path or journey to I, to the one that I’ve been on. And yeah, maybe I can support others in identifying, naming, dealing with their own trauma.

00:17:21 Rosemary

Thank you. Sorry, just had to clear my throat. We spoke before we began recording about things are shifting in we spoke before we began recording about how things are shifting in the corporate world. But it seems there’s still a lot of pressure, especially on the upper echelons of executive leadership. So as I was listening to you, I just wanted to reference something. I pulled several quotes that you’ve shared publicly that caught my attention. You speak about the particular exhaustion of performing well while carrying a lot, the loneliness of looking fine, the burn it, the burnout that rest no longer touches, the flatness that shows up once a goal has been reached, and the inner critic that built the career and won’t go quiet. Now reading those very poetically expressed experiences. Presence, performance, exhaustion, isolation, and this unstoppable inner drive that can never be satisfied. And I’m thinking you wrote about them because you may have experienced them. And I’m asking this question because I’m wondering about the clientele you serve. Do your clients experience what you have described and what you’ve gone through? Can you tell us a little bit about your clients?

00:19:04 John

Yes, to both of those questions. So the clientele that I generally work with, high performing, often maybe in, in positions of responsibility that maybe they hadn’t originally signed up for, but the organization has, has changed, often in positions where their internal value system is not necessarily aligned with the purpose and goals of the organization. That’s a big one. That happens quite a bit. A lot of uncertainty, obviously, at the moment, in current times, geopolitically, particularly not just in Europe, actually everywhere. And uncertainty is a tricky one because it often pushes us to work that much harder to try and have control over the. What’s coming tomorrow. And, you know, what helps is not necessarily more certainty because nobody can supply that. And what I often try and work with in the conversations with the clients that come and see me is supporting their nervous system in actually being okay to sit with uncertainty. So that’s a little bit what I see. And behind some of the really, let’s say the, the, the masks of performance there, at the end of the day, there’s a, a human sitting working on the same hardware that were. We’re all on with their own individual learned experience. Survival mechanisms. And, you know, some people are really good at showing up in a particular way, and it does not mean that inside they’re not really struggling with a lot of anxiety or there’s not a lot of survival mechanisms pushing them to, to be perfect, to, To. Yeah. To avoid any perception of being a failure and not actually living up to the role that they’re actually in.

00:21:46 Rosemary

Yeah.

00:21:48 John

And it’s, you know, it’s, it’s an interesting thing because. Yeah. No, when we think of trauma in the, in the mainstream. Right. The, the mind automatically goes to ptsd, chronic anxiety, burnout, maybe all of, all of these presentations. It’s not any different working with this is that working with executives, it’s, it’s just they have better masking, they’re more defended. And that’s how, that’s how I was until it doesn’t work anymore.

00:22:19 Rosemary

Yeah.

00:22:20 John

Until something happens. And, you know, it’s. It’s not the case that something necessarily needs to, to crumple down or, or break before somebody decides, hey, I need to, I need additional resources. I need a coach or therapist. No, there’s often in some people, a lot of early realization. Oh, the way I’m showing up at work, the amount of effort that I have to put in, there’s only I’m running on fuel that’s, that’s running out. What happens when I run out? I don, to run out of fuel. So let’s see if we can titrate and, and monitor that internal fuel that’s keeping the system running. And yeah, at the end of the day it’s often just these really hardworking, overworking parts of us that have never had a holiday and that are just in overdrive all of the time. And that’s not necessarily something to, you know, to, to, to shame or to say that, that it’s bad. Absolutely not. These are the mechanisms that have pushed these individuals to a lot of success in the first place. So it starts by acknowledging and sending a lot of gratitude to, to those mechanisms, those processes and at the same time having that negotiation. Well, what would it take to work 1% less or to, to trust the client to be able to authentically decide? No, in this particular case I’m leaving, going home and going to engage in yoga or some self care practice. So yeah, that’s, that’s a lot of the type of conversation and it’s not necessarily that anybody is presenting with. Yeah, as I mentioned, a debilitating condition which is preventing them moving forward in the world. It’s a little bit the opposite. They’re going to too far, they’re pushing too much and there’s a cost to everything.

00:24:22 J’aime

Right.

00:24:23 Rosemary

Yeah, I, I really relate to what you’ve shared, John, because I remember when I was promoted into corporate leadership, I thought nothing of spending 12 hours a day at work. It was normal, it was applauded. I had no life outside of work. Maybe a little bit on the weekends, but it’s, it’s good to hear. You said earlier when the body sen the invoice. So it doesn’t need to be a physical breakdown, it doesn’t need to be a divorce. It could be just, you know what, My relationship’s not what I want it to be. I’m not seeing my kids, I’m not seeing my partner. And I’m just wanting to go a couple of ways here. You offer somatic therapy and you offer executive coaching. So if someone is tipping from I’m fine to I think I could use some support. Given your corporate background and your ability to pendulate between coaching and somatic therapy, I’m thinking that makes you incredibly attractive. And I’m wondering when you’re working with someone, how do you titrate from coaching to somatic therapy? Does the client lead? Do you suggest how does that work?

00:25:58 John

Yeah, it’s a good question. So recently I had a newly promoted global finance director, somebody relatively new in the position, head of finance but being targeted for a global responsibility. And this was somebody who came into coaching because her, her boss said you need to go to into coaching because if you, if you don’t, you know, we’re a bit concerned you’re going to to kill yourself trying to deliver on everything. I thought the word it was her wording. I thought it was a bit extreme but that’s, that’s what the debrief was. So in essence learn to delegate more. That’s coaching brief I think within the first conversation, within the first few minutes and I guess that’s a little bit instinctual where one wants to actually it’s not necessarily leading but everything is leading at the end of the day. If I’m asking a coaching question, sure it’s not self I’m not. I don’t have an agenda. But even asking a question is intervening in, in a conversation. And you know I started, I asked the question well yeah, that that part of you or that let’s say that that that drive to, to move forward and really deliver on all of these objectives that you have on your to do list. What would the concern be if, if that drive kind of slowed down a little? And the client immediately thought without, without taking a pause. well, Well, I’d be a failure right there. We have a core belief and that’s we’re automatically in therapy territory. So the tricky thing is that’s going to come up in coaching session anyway and then we contract with the client and then it’s okay we have two directions to to go here. We can, we can go back and start putting having a procedural conversation ICF aligned as to well what would it take to, to be able to to delegate, maybe practice some do some role play around setting boundaries around assertiveness around looking at other resources within the the organization. Looking at what what would have to happen to be able to delegate more to this all of these other people in the team. Or the other direction then is to look a little bit more internally and to foster a little bit that self trust in the client. That that part that’s super scared of failing and as a defense mechanism is showing up in a way that’s delivering on everything. We can maybe start looking a little bit at about how to make that one more effective in its role. Not getting rid of it just looking to see how getting curious how can we support that one do an even better job? And doing a better job is not working harder. Doing a better job is having that internal trust in the more moment to be able to internally delegate to other internal resources or to the client. We don’t need to. We don’t need to in this moment do X, Y and Z. And that’s a. Yeah, that’s a process then, of internal negotiation and trust building.

00:29:44 Rosemary

Yeah, I’m noticing, I’m noticing your language. And really what we’re talking about here, you know, shifting from coaching to a more therapeutic approach is shifting from mental processing to more somatic, embodied processing. So I missed one of the points that I’m sure attracts a lot of clients to you, which is, as a former CEO, you use negotiation and mediation as frames for your internal family systems. Parts work, negotiating perfectionists down bit by bit, mediating with a part that wants to leave the company and a part that wants to stay. So I’m curious, when did you realize that corporate language could carry therapeutic work? And I’m sure it’s far more comfortable for the executives you work with not to be dropped into a whole different language which therapy does possess.

00:30:48 John

Yeah, yeah, maybe just. And just really quickly to kind of completely close out the final question. It’s really contracting then with the client in that moment to have a, let’s say, an explicit understanding. Are we staying with coaching work? Are we going a little bit deeper and leave that decision to the, to the client. The material is already in the room. They’ve already mentioned the emotion and the concern of what could happen if they continue going the route they’re going in. And then it’s up to them at the end of the day how. Yeah, what particular modality they would prefer going in. And yeah, to the second question, it’s, you know, I think we have to build on what’s comfortable and safe for the person in front of us. And if I can use corporate language and that’s coming across with a certain mental model for the client, then they’re immediately going to have a lot more buy in on the, on the language. And these are individuals who are working in negotiation. Every. Everything is negotiation with external suppliers, with their management, with their subordinates, with their peers, with clients and the, the rules of kind of negotiation. Okay, I’d ideally like this. What, what do you need? Can we, you know, how do we. This is my anchor. How do we move from there? What’s, what’s a good midway? All of the, let’s say the, the, the play, the spiel around that is something that they’re comfortable with. The same thing is if we’re looking at a mind is looking for more purpose, more authenticity. Okay, Right. And we go and we recruit in the external world. So you have a HR person pulling, finding those resources for you internally. It’s not any different. You find your, you know, you, you, you hold your conference room internally and you find, okay, who’s responsible for locating resources. Okay, do we have that resource internally? Yes. The last time we were out on the, for, for, for a Christmas dinner on the football field, there was this level of confidence or a sense or authenticity that would be really helpful in this particular topic intention that we’re working on in the, the conversation. And yeah, it’s, if we can, or if I can use the same language because it’s the same work that’s happening internally. It’s really making sure that, you know, there’s not an internal friction. One part of the client wants to do X, the other one wants to do Y, and that friction is causing some anxiety. Well, as we know, when we get really curious about the intentions of these inner processes, then we find out actually they both want the same thing for the client and that’s for the benefit of the client, are actually on the same team, then things can soften and then maybe a negotiation is necessary and kind of really just using the same vocabulary and being, let’s say, culturally sensitive to what the client is used to, that’s probably going to facilitate a little bit more acceptance and trust in the conversation.

00:34:44 Rosemary

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. I’m going to quote you to you again because this one intrigues me. You said that your clients have often solved everything except the thing that’s solving them. And I wonder if you could tell us about that and maybe if there’s an example you could share a client without of course, identifying them. I’m just, I’m curious as to how that plays out.

00:35:24 John

Yeah, so I, I, you know, I think this is one of the, if there was a core element of compassionate inquiry, and there’s, there’s so many of them on many different phases of, of an inquiry. But I think for me personally, having gone through the training, the mentorship, and, you know, I mean, kind of become a certified practitioner, one element that does often come up really frequently is the intention of a particular survival mechanism or trigger and, or when a client is, is triggered and it, and it’s activating some memory of the past, it’s an echo of the, and because of that, there’s a particular and automated mechanism which kicks in and has a particular result. And I, I perceive in also in the conversations that I have, in the work that I do, allowing the client to be able, let’s say, to, to facilitate a conversation where the client’s own awareness are being brought to the fact that, okay, what’s happening in the present, it has nothing to do with the present. It’s happening because of that thing that happened when I was three years old, four years old, six years old. And that mechanism is still playing out in the current moment in the boardroom, in that conversation with, with my, with, with the, with the team or with peers or with the client. And that can be really impactful, understanding. Oh, there’s this, there’s a survival mechanism that was, was learned a long time ago. And, you know, we’ve, we’ve, we’ve seen some beautiful examples of how Gabor works with that in Compassionate Inquiry training. 

And what, it works just as well doing executive coaching. No big surprise, right? It’s the human at the end of the day. And I think that that piece of, that piece of compassionate inquiry is really impactful for individuals who have this opinion.
No, there’s no part, it’s just me. There’s no survival mechanism. Look at how I’ve navigated the world. Look at how successful I am. I’m not surviving, I’m driving. And then when you realize that, okay, they absolutely might be, but then in certain circumstances, they’re in the car on the way home, they’re at home with the wife and family, and they’re anything but present and connected, thinking about presentation tomorrow, that needs to go perfectly. And they’re as disconnected as, as anybody could be. And, and then in that conversation, that’s where it, obviously the compassion comes in and not making it wrong and bringing their attention to the fact that while it’s, it’s not them, they’re not sitting down and deciding not to be present. They’re just caught up in that automatic mechanistic way of being. It’s been like that for the last 40 years or 50 years. And yeah, when we can start bringing some perception to what that’s happening, what’s happening in that moment, or maybe what beliefs are behind that and how those beliefs are showing, are affecting how that individual is showing up in the present moment, then that can really bring a lot of softening to the system. When somebody has the capability of being compassionate towards their own way of being, then that’s a, that’s, that’s a big thing.

00:39:36 Rosemary

It is, it’s huge. And it’s huge for the families as well, because I remember growing up with an executive dad. And the only time he came alive was when he was sharing something that happened at work that day over the dinner table. Otherwise he was not there. He was physically present but he was not there at all. So yeah, it’s a real trickle down effect on families. I’m curious, do you ever expand your work beyond your client? Like does, does it trickle down within their families as well? Of course if you’re working with a husband, you will work yourself with a wife, but it is, is the impact of your work something that trickles down?

00:40:25 John

I would hope so. I would hope so. And you know, sometimes we, we just don’t know. You work with, you work with somebody and maybe you’ve, you’ve started something that you don’t see kind of fully completing to its end result. Maybe you’ve started a. Yeah. An internal initiative that you don’t end up seeing. And sometimes clients do report back and say yeah, that really affected my self care practice practice. It really affected the, the, the work life balance that I had previously and now that I need to have because I have come to this conclusion that this is not optional. This is really important for me to continue being successful going forward. Yeah.

00:41:24 Rosemary

Is it a surprise, sorry, Is it a surprise as you work with people that they notice how when they shift, everyone around them shifts? I’m just curious if clients come back and report that to you. It’s like they don’t really connect the dots between how they have changed within themselves and how their relationships with other people shift.

00:41:55 John

Yeah, you know, well, it’s a double edged sword and I guess so most, I would say more times than not if there is a, a positive development and resourcing and improvement in how somebody is actually coping then that is going to have a positive effect on the, the family members, the, the family unit, friends. Definitely. Now in some cases that level of re resourcing and the new Rosemary, the new John might not be fully accepted in that more authentic role. And sometimes it’s the, it’s the parents who kind of revolt a little bit. But you were always, you always have done everything. You were always the people, people pleaser. You were always the entertainer. What’s happened? You’ve stopped. You’re focusing now on your own needs. That’s not okay. We didn’t teach you to focus on your own needs. We told, we taught you and, and for want of a better word, institutionalized you to actually be there for us. How dare you decide you have your own life. So yes, that happens and sometimes in, in relationship with the partner, that can be a thing too. But you know, if that, if that happens, then maybe that was for the best. And sometimes it’s also a real opportunity for the partner to actually start to wake up, call, hey, I can focus on myself too. This doesn’t necessarily have to be a bad thing. He’s after growing. I can use that as a, as an opportunity to grow too. Maybe we can grow together. So, you know, it’s. I don’t think there’s any hard and fast rules. And you see everything.

00:44:12 Rosemary

I like the picture that arose as I was listening to your answer. It’s almost as if you’re working with someone who has been a very busy actor in an acting career and all of a sudden the script is gone and it is an opening, but it’s also very different and perhaps a little bit scary. You know, you also say in the bio that you have shared on your website that the body carries what the mind has already tried to leave behind. That’s very profound. I wonder if you can say more about that.

00:44:56 John

Yeah, I think the, one of the advantages of working with these modalities that a lot of us work with, compassionate inquiry, any, anything that’s blending a little bit the mind, the cognitive way of working and the body is, you know, it’s, it’s really, it’s two sides of the same story, right? And at any point in, in time, there will be the, the narrative, there will be the story, and we can get really caught up with that or we can maybe forget there was another story, but the body rarely forgets. So that’s really the one that I think has to take priority in any conversation. Obviously we’re listening to what needs to be said or as, at least as, as much as, or as little as is required for the, the conversation. But then having the, the, the possibility to, and the confidence to actually just ask somebody to, to pause and ask, well, what are you noticing inside and where? And would it be okay to just focus on that for a second and see what happens? And when we, when we do that, regardless of the modality, right? And there’s so, so many of them. Compassionate inquiries, obviously one of the, the main modalities that I work with. But you know, in all of these cases, the meaning, the perspective shift, the information, the real story that the body actually throws up or allows us to rise can be much more significant. And you know, maybe it’s, it’s verbal, maybe it’s, it’s really somatic and there’s a physical shift, maybe there’s Just a memory that’s arising, that needs to be witnessed and that’s just another opportunity to get really curious about. Well, yeah, what’s that memory about? What needed to be seen? What was the story when you were 1 years old at the beginning needed to be heard or witnessed? Can we do any of that now?

00:47:35 Rosemary

Yeah, it’s, it sounds like it must be so rewarding to be able to introduce people to their inner landscape when they’ve been totally not connected to it previously. They’ve discovered this whole new inner world and understanding how their physical body holds old trauma, old pain, old beliefs. I’m just imagining what a journey it might be for some of your clients. I’m wondering if it was particularly striking with anyone in particular and if you could comment about that.

00:48:31 John

It’s not uncommon that working with high powered executives, when we even broach the topic at the beginning and I might even ask the question, well, as you say that. What’s, what’s coming up? What do you mean what’s coming up? What are you noticing inside? Nothing. What do you, what do you feel? Is there an emotion? Oh, wait, wait, wait a second. I don’t, I don’t feel feelings. I think feelings. So as soon as you ask me that question, my mind is actually in overdrive thinking. And this is not necessarily uncommon. I, I probably, I was there myself. I’m pretty sure I was. And you know, it’s not, it’s not the case that we just kind of weighed in and ask, you know, hey, you need to do it like this, right? Kind of lean in, feel your feeling. It doesn’t necessarily work that way. So it does need quite a lot of patience and persistence and a lot of safety. But it can be quite, let’s say, impressive. I’m not quite sure the word that I was looking for is. Yeah, it can be quite, it can be really striking when, and I’m not talking about big kind of shifts, I’m talking about something actually quite small. Simply a client who’s not actually felt or noticed what’s happening inside in 30 years because they’re so disconnected and not disconnected in, in a bad way. Clients quite regularly tell me, and we say, what’s happening? Well, it’s very easy. I have this firewall and. Okay, what’s the firewall do? Firewall is monitoring packets going, going in and in and out. Ah. And we can get really curious about that. And is the firewall on now? Oh, yeah. Can, can, can we turn it off? No, we can’t turn it off. We can dial down the intensity a little bit or up the intensity. Ah, and tell me more. Well, firewall also works externally as well, not just internally. It’s also filtering everything that’s coming out of my. My mouth. So I’m. It’s not me. This is the client speaking. Every time I’m actually speaking to my partner, there is a vigilance, there’s a monitoring to make sure that there’s a copywriting happening before the worlds actually leave my mouth. Wow, that sounds exhausting. So when we kind of slowly unpack and look a little bit under the, under the hood, what mechanisms are at. At play? How are they serving you? What’s their function? What’s the impact of having a firewall that’s always on and never resting? What would be like if the firewall, if we could turn it off on the weekends like any other firewall, would have privy to these type of things. They do slowly facilitate a shift in how one is actually being. And then the next step is obviously to kind of entice the client. Okay, well, the next time you’re actually speaking to your boss or your partner or noticing how you’re doing in a conversation, just to. To pause and, and notice, bring some perception to what’s happening inside. Ah, okay. Firewall is on 80. That’s interesting. And. And slowly bring some, you know, perception, but then maybe naming it. Okay. And then potentially, next step, maybe thanking the firewall for doing such a great job of always being vigilant and diligent. And so, you know, these are the, let’s say the more subtle effects and changes, because for me, they’re more significant. Right. Of course, you have clients coming in with chronic migraine clients turning up with cardiophobia with many different presentations, and let’s say, a slightly different line of inquiry. But, you know, even on the fairly standard, seemingly harmless type of way of being or presentation, it can be quite. Yeah, it can be quite impactful for them, but also for me to observe those shifts.

00:53:44 Rosemary

Now, you’ve explained that very well. Unpacking and bringing curiosity and inviting exploration. John, as I referenced at the beginning, you’ve resisted common labels. You know, the coach, the therapist, the ex CEO. But on your website, you say, I’m a facilitator, not a guru. You do the work, I hold the space for it. And I think that’s a beautiful place to wrap up our conversation, if that’s all right with you.

00:54:18 John

Yeah.

00:54:19 Rosemary

And before we do that, I’d like to ask, is there anything that I haven’t asked you about that you’d really like to take a few minutes to speak to.

00:54:41 John

You know what? I think maybe one, one thing, just really briefly. As coaches or therapists, we, we often have this preconception that somebody from corporate or executive or, you know, working with a CEO is really, really tricky and you have to, to dig and they’re so kind of defended that it’s, it’s going to be impossible. So, and that’s not my experience. Often when sitting in conversation, these individuals are usually very open and within the first 20 minutes you can actually understand a lot of the, the difficulty or maybe some of the pain that they’re actually going through. You don’t have to get past the executive. You just have to make it safe for them to be the person that they actually are underneath the title, if that makes sense.

00:55:38 Rosemary

Makes perfect sense. So, John, here’s my last question. If someone listening recognizes themselves in what you’ve shared about the people you work with, what would you like them to know?

00:56:04 John

You know, it’s, it’s a, it’s a brave new world, right? We all have the resources and capacity without judgment at our fingertips to be able to support each other. That maybe not wasn’t necessary some years ago where coaching therapy was all taboo. That’s shifted. That’s not the case anymore. And I think, you know, on a, I think it’s shifting also on a day by day basis, not just with the advent of AI, which is massively resourceful and helpful for a lot of individuals who want to have conversations about how do I prepare for my next interview or this conversation with xyz, but also in terms of having, having deeper conversations, whether that’s in, however you want to label it with a coach, a counselor, a therapist, I think things have, things have moved on. And I would just say to any of the people out there who are kind of thinking about it, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with you. There’s. Nobody is, is broken. There’s just an opportunity to do some self inquiry and just get really curious about where that can lead to.

00:57:34 Rosemary

Very well said. John Cummins. Thank you so much for joining us today.

00:57:39 John

Yeah, you’re right.

00:57:40 Rosemary

Sharing your remarkable journey and this multifaceted offering, your executive background, your coaching, your somatic therapy and your, your cultural alignment with working executives. Thank you so much for being here.

00:58:01 John

You’re welcome. Thank you.

00:58:06 Rosemary

Okay, That’s a wrap. Yeah. How are you feeling, John?

00:58:16 John

Yeah, feeling, Feeling good. I’m just shake, shaking off the.

00:58:25 Rosemary

Yeah.

00:58:27 John

Focus.

00:58:28 Rosemary

Yeah.

00:58:29 John

Yeah. I was trying to stay in, very focused and in a particular mindset. So Rosemary has really good questions. So I had to think, yeah, what’s. And because sometimes it’s. I was a little bit concerned that I wasn’t as precise and as spot on. And I know I gave answers, but my mind was thinking, do I go. Do I go with this example? Do I go with that example? And sometimes I. I wasn’t feeling that I was really getting the heart of the question that was being. Being posed. And I know I was speaking to it, but sometimes wasn’t fully landing on. You know, you’re asking X, I’m giving you x minus 2. I. Yeah, it didn’t feel so spot on, but, yeah. How did you perceive that?

00:59:29 Rosemary

How it landed with me was if I had not been receiving an answer that worked, I would have asked you the question again, we have the space to do that here. But the overall impression is I asked you multiple times if you could share stories about your clients. And what I loved was your sensitivity to their privacy that you shared very carefully. And I think that’s the impression the listeners will walk away with. It’s like, I can feel safe with John because even when he’s speaking about his work quite passionately, I am not going to come up. I’m not going to recognize myself in something he says. I’m not going to feel exposed. So I think the way that you answered it was absolutely where you needed to land.

01:00:26 John

Is it interesting you spoke? Because I was actually struggling with that because I was thinking of one of my clients who. Who has this firewall and, you know, we speak about this and, you know, thinking, shit, he’s going to be listening to this. And. But, yeah, it’s fine. It’s fine. He doesn’t know how many other firewalls.

01:00:47 Rosemary

Are out there, so I’m sure it’s pretty common for the people you work with. So, you know. Yeah, And I will just flag something. I think everything went really well. I think you’ll be really proud of this. And what can happen over the next day or so is there can be like. We call it a vulnerability hangover, because you’ve been talking a lot about yourself quite publicly. Not publicly yet, but it will be. And you know that. And I would not change a thing in what you said. And, you know, this is how many interviews now? 114 Or something like that? Yeah, we’ve. We’ve had a lot of these conversations. And if, if, you know, especially as a Spotlight guest, if there had been anything, a myth, I would have called your attention to it. Right, okay.

01:01:46 John

That’s I, you know, I trust you.

01:01:47 Rosemary

Yeah.

01:01:48 John

And in it, it’s not like it’s going to make a difference. I hate looking at myself anyway. Right. So even if it’s perfect, I’m going to be cringing. I’m gonna say, darling, this is.

01:02:01 Rosemary

Yeah, we’ve. We’ve had guests that have never listened to their own.

01:02:04 John

Yeah.

01:02:05 J’aime

Yeah.

01:02:05 Rosemary

Episode or it’s taken them years. They’ve. They’ve had to have a lot of positive feedback from people in their circles to convince them. It’s like, all right, maybe I will listen. So, yeah, yeah, it’s totally super big.

01:02:21 J’aime

Kudos for stepping in to the spotlight, knowing that about yourself. This is very brave and courageous and I just really want to commend you, John, on your pace. Very professional, very self aware, very self assured pace. I think that is going to really communicate a lot to people about the kind of safety also that you create. Just through that you must be such a breath of fresh air. Fresh air when you come to your clients because you have a very radiant presence and you just bring such a gentle confidence through the way you speak.

01:03:11 Rosemary

So, yeah, it’s a pleasure.

01:03:13 J’aime

Pleasure to have you on.

01:03:14 Rosemary

Yeah.

01:03:15 John

Welcome. Thank you.

01:03:16 Rosemary

And thank you for speaking of your origin. I did not notice this when we had our pre session prep call, but I was hearing Ireland when you were doing the sound check with Jem. It’s like I’m hearing an Irish accent and I did not know that. So thank you for sharing that because then I could put that part of my brain. It’s like, where’s Ireland coming from? Where’s Ireland coming from? I could put that aside because it’s still. It’s coming through. But yeah, thank you. Thank you for sharing your story.

01:03:46 John

And it’s easily relatable to all of the trauma stuff as well because I don’t really. Traumatized population. Yes.

01:03:54 Rosemary

Oh, huge, huge, huge. I’m kind of glad I didn’t know because I might have been tempted to invite Kevin to host this episode and I really wanted to be the one to host. All right, well, thank you. I’m gonna let you go. I’m. I’m imagining you walking away from Zoom and jumping around and like shaking and releasing all this energy. So go well and thank you so much.

01:04:19 John

I will do. But and the last thing. Can I just say that your grounded presence was a really big help as well because that helped my nervous system kind of settle down and that that made a big difference.

01:04:32 Rosemary

Thank you.

01:04:34 John

And yeah. So thank you so much.

01:04:36 Rosemary

Yeah, thank you. I’M just so happy you’re doing the work you’re doing, because as I’ve said before, my background in corporate, like, this was not an option 20 years ago when I left that realm, so.

01:04:47 John

Yeah, exactly. One more thing, John. Do you want.

01:04:51 J’aime

Do you want the audio to that. That grounding that you lead in the beginning? Do you want me to send that to you? Have you leave.

01:05:01 John

Sure, sure.

01:05:02 Rosemary

Yeah, I. I would love a copy, too, because I’m. I. As I was going through it, it’s like, I want to listen to this again. This is really good. Yes.

01:05:10 John

I just made it. I made it up.

01:05:13 Rosemary

Okay, we’ll send it as a separate.

01:05:14 John

All right.

01:05:15 Rosemary

Yeah.

01:05:16 John

Thanks so much, guys.

01:05:16 Rosemary

Okay. Thank you. Bye for now.

01:05:18 John

Have a lovely one. Bye.

01:05:19 Rosemary

Bye.